Transcript for Simon Cowell Opens Up About His Heartbreaking Loss, "losing them was the hardest thing that happened to me"!

It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life thinking what if I got to live for and Oh gosh

Absolutely dreadful.

I met Senita in this club and I thought I'm gonna make a record with her. I don't know how a record's made. I can't read music, but let's just do it. The first time it flopped, second time it flopped, even when I had the hit, I owed the bank 500,000 pounds and I'm broke. But I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe.

Yeah, but this was a real bittersweet time because I get a phone call which starts with when you're sitting down. And I was on a downward spiral from that period. We came a ridiculous workaholic working till 7 o'clock in the morning, suffering from depression, and the truth is I still suffer from depression at times. What about one direction? The one thing I regret about one direction is, so boys, if you're listening,

Well, I had a happy childhood. I was always bored though, really bored at school. I always wanted to have a life where I would be interested and have fun. When I was told the school days of the best days of your life, I'm thinking, oh my god, this is terrible because I hate school. So I was really determined to do something where I would be actually just having fun. That's what I kept thinking to myself and I want to start making my own money. And one thing my parents did do when we were very, very young, because in those days, you could actually, even at the age of about seven or eight, you know, in our neighborhood, go round to people's houses, knock on their door and say, can I, can I wash your car? I know the lawn, because my mum and dad said, If we pay for the holiday, you've got to earn your spending money. So I'm like fine. So at least a love it. If you got 10 quit for like washing a car, I mean it was like bingo. It was the best feeling.

When I lost them, particularly when I lost my mum, because then it was kind of final. It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life. I mean, it was very, it was as bad as things could possibly be. And we just had the most amazing relationship. My mum was the disciplinary, and I remember I must have been about four years old, maybe even younger. And I remember where I was sitting in the car. And she said something to me, and she said, manners makeeth the man. And my life, what does that mean? She's good manners makeeth the man. And then she explained what that meant. And it's always stuck in my head, because it's such an old fashioned way of saying, be polite. Both my parents were very kind of old school. They were very respectful. to everyone. I always remember that and I looked up to both of them and I always knew at any time I could go to them when I needed advice and they would always keep me the right steer and they were always there for me.

It probably comes from my dad, uh, work for a large corporation. Um, and before he retired, he said to me, don't work for a large company because when you're, you know, 65 or whatever, they're going to retire you and you'll never hear from them again. And that is exactly what happened to my dad and it was heartbreaking because He did work hard. He was a very loyal person to the company he worked for. When he passed away, he didn't have any money. That's probably what made me realize, I don't want to be in that position. And secondly, the only way I can achieve that is by working for myself. And I always have this great division of if I work for a company and I don't get on well with the boss, he's going to probably invite me to his house and talk about golf. I just always had this in my head thinking, I couldn't think of anything worse than having to suck up to a boss. who doesn't like me. And the reason I kept thinking my boss would never like me is because I was so bad at school. And my teachers were quite strict with me. So I thought work was probably going to be the same. So that's what drove me. And my dad also, he knew, because I didn't do very well with my exam results. And he did say to me, It's quite clear somebody, you're not going to make you a diversity. Have you made up me mind what you want to do? And I said, I want to do something. I think in entertainment, I'm not sure what. And he said, whatever you do, you're going to have to be patient because it's not going to happen overnight. If you want to do well, you've got to learn to be good at it. And it could take 20 years, it could take 30 years, but understand that. And I'm like, I'm fine with that. And I really was fine with that.

Well, yeah, one of the the things that always stuck in my mind. And it's quite an old thing to say to a 12 year old, he said, everyone in life's assignment has a sign on their head, and it says, make me feel important. And I want you to think about that. I'm thinking, sorry, you know, I have no idea what that means. Why do you say that? Maybe you said a couple of drinks. And then I forget when I realized what it meant, but boy did that stick in my mind, which was if you want to do one in life, it's going to be a team effort and make sure you recognize every single person on that team. And so if I walk into a room, I instantly, I think pretty much from the point I understood it is that I can walk into a room and I can see, I see everything in one moment. I see the person who's opening the door, I see the person who's doing a particular job. So in other words, I see the room

Unfortunately, I've seen a lot that as well. And I see an awful lot of hypocrisy, which are people, yes, who on the outside, they show one side of it. I then always see that person when they're off camera. and who they really are. And they are the opposite. They will just like you said completely ignore everybody. The worst thing is, and I had this as I was trying to get my career started, there's nothing worse than when you're talking to somebody. And as they're talking to you, they're looking for someone more important than you. I remember feeding that. You know, at an early age of my career and how that felt and it was very demeaning. I suppose, you know, those two stories about my mum dad, they were really, really, really important things and they must have known that that would mean something for me later on in life. And I've said the same thing to my son, Eric. I remember the first, I'm like, sit to Eric, manners make of the man. He's just about two. He's like, give me, he's not only repeated it, but completely right. I sort of say it again. And then eventually, I think he must be in about four. And he was very polite to someone. And I said, my proud of you, Eric, he went, Manus makes a demand daddy and I'm like, you've got it.

I probably, I was, yeah, I would be in about 12-ish. There was nothing I excelled in at school at all.

Yeah, he worked for their real estate division.

Well, I loved buying records. So just going into a record shop and saving up a money for you to buy a single or an album. was just everything. So most of my spending money would go on on records. I can vividly remember going into my bedroom with a brand new album and just loving listening to every single track on it. It was such an exciting feeling.

Well, my dad, he said, okay, you failed all your exams. twice. So you're going to have to get a job assignment. And since you're not qualified, what about test scores? I don't know where that came from. I'm like, doing what? And he said, well, you know, you could end up maybe managing a store or something and I'm like, Okay, so I ended up at this interview. And I remember I wore jeans. And before I even sat down, the guy said, how dare you come in here wearing jeans? I don't know, like, I'm sorry. He said, well, how dare you? And I was so annoyed. I said, you know what? I'm really glad I came here because I never want to work for you or your company. And by the way, your office looks like So I didn't go that well. My mum made an application for me to work for the civil service. So I was interviewed to be I think like a law clerk or something and they actually had a chart which told you exactly how much money you would make at the age of 64 and I'm like, that's not going to happen. Then my dad thought I should be in the building trade and I was going to have to work at this sort of building site whatever it was for two years to learn everything, and I thought, no. And then eventually, I got a job as a runner at L Street Studios. And the second I got that job, it was like brilliant. I was so happy. And it was hard work.

I'd kind of worked out that how to become a director, you know, you have to become a third assistant, second assistant, first assistant, two years in editing, sweets, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I was up for that. I thought this is something I think I would love. Unfortunately, the contract I had with only lasted for two months and the executive producer was so mean that he said after two months, well, that's it. We don't need you anymore. But the PA's liked me so much. They paid for my salary. But he was so awful this guy. Every time he would come into the building, I used to have to hide under their desks. And he caught me one day and he said, what are you still doing here? And I said, well, Nothing. He said, well, who's paying you? And I said, nobody. And he said, we're not allowed to be here and he threw me out. And then I nearly got a job on Ashley, I was all for the job as a runner on the shining. That was just making that. I saw the hotel being built on the block when I was a runner. My mum at the same time had made an application for me to work in the postroom at E in my music publishing. You hold at this point. I was 16 17 17 17. Yeah. So I had this choice of I could become a runner at big film studio on what look like a great movie or I could go in the post-true at my music publishing and something made me go and I tell you what it was. I passed the studio where I was going to work as a runner, one particular day. And there was a cure people just outside the building and I went up to someone and I said, you know, what's up with one curing for? And they went, what do you mean? They said, well, no one here is on contract. And when a new production happens, It's pretty much first come first served and I'm thinking, God, this doesn't sound very reliable. I don't like the idea of that. So I think I'll take my chances and I work in the music publishing postroom.

Yeah. Yeah, literally. So it was, it wasn't a very nice building. And it was almost like being in a garage where we were. It was definitely a basement. There were two guys who used to work. I think one of them was called Harryl something. They were probably in their mid to late 60s and I'd turn up all cocky, you know. Right, I've got job at the postroom and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that and they were like, just makes a cover to you son and blah, blah, blah. But anyway, it was good because I did get a chance to understand what everybody did in the company. And I think I was making 18 pounds a week at that point and as the month wore on because I thought someone's gonna realize that I'm really talented and offer me a great job. And I literally would walk into everyone's offices pretty much every day and say, can't, can I have a job, a better job? And there's nothing going. I literally, even the managing director, I just walked in one day and I said, I'm sorry, blah, blah, blah. Can I have a job? Because I'm really passionate. And you just drew me out of this office.

Every time, every time, there were a few people who were really, really kind to me and they explained what they did. They explained to me how music publishing worked, what they do for the writers, the catalogues, everything. So I started to get an understanding of how the music business worked. I also glimpsed some of the checks that were coming in, being in the mail room. And my jaw dropped seeing how much cake bush, for instance, and it was like, how do you help? If you do one of this business, there's a lot of money. I had no idea.

But if you were annoying people, I was actually maybe in a kind of a charmingly annoying way. I was always, you know, very polite. I was very on time. I would always say, here's your mail, sir. Ma'am, is that anything else I can do for you? And while I'm here, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I was sort of like the company pet. However, It did start to go along me after a while about how little money I was making and my brother making a loss of money now being in a state agent and and I wasn't offered a job out of the mail room. I thought it was going to happen after about a year after 18 months nothing and so I said, right, nothing's happening here. I'm going to become an estate agent. And my dad, because he did have connections with property, he got me to work for a company called Hilly a Parker Mayan Rauden. Now, even by the name, you can just tell the kind of people who, I mean, they were just awful, awful people, really snorby. really mean, really rude, and after a month, my mum just said to me, you're really unhappy, aren't you? And I said, you're so really unhappy, I hate this. And then my dad, knew the guy who ran in my music publishing, and now this is where I wasn't in the postroom. And I don't really think he connected me with my dad, because my dad actually said to him, I can't believe after 80 months, he didn't give Simon at least a little promotion, even. I didn't realize that was your son or sorry clanks. I am never enough. Anyway, the next thing is an opening suddenly arrives and my mum, I remember her face, she said, I've got some really exciting news for you. And I said, well, she said, I think there's a better job for you at the end of my music publishing and you've got to have an interview. And it was working in the international department of EMI, the publishing, which basically means the writers that were signed, say in America, Germany, whatever, this department administered their copyrights. And the job that became available was a song, which meant And all of the hundreds of thousands were, if not millions of songs, they published, my job was to get other people to cover those songs, so they could generate more money. And to do that, it was quite a difficult job because it was the country music division. Now that point, country was not very popular in the UK, and a lot of these songs were unknown. And what made it really difficult was, is that this job was actually promised to somebody else in the company. Um, and obviously it got out that I got the job because my dad helped me get the job. Take any of the family would you work there for 18 months? It just looked like I was given even though it paid I think 30 quit a week or something. It wasn't like a high paid job. And uh, no one would talk to me for the first six months. So I'm like, it's terrible. So I locked myself into this room, and I just thought, no one's talking to me, I'm just going to listen to everyone at these terrible country songs. And I listened to literally thousands and thousands of songs over six months, compiled a list, and then just went out to all the record labels, met up with all as many A and R people as I could. And I said, I think I've got a great song here, and it will be perfect for one of your artists. And I did get a lot of the songs covered. Are you 18 years old? I was about probably about 18, 19 at that point. And then my boss said, I think you're really bright assignment. Why don't we start a company together? And I was like, It's a bit early, isn't it? I didn't mean to. And he said, uh, I, I'd been here for 16 years. Uh, you're never going to make much money. Um, let's just do it. Uh, I've actually found, found some tobacco. So I met these people. They under recording studio. I had a really, really bad feeling. And I said, I just, I don't think I can do this. It's too early. I don't, I don't even know what I'm doing at the moment. That alone run my own company. And he said, well, I think you better go and meet these people and tell them that the answer's no. And he did it. You know, he was going to happen because I went and they persuaded me. And I, I mean, I know, I knew I'd made a mistake. So we started this company, we had about £40,000 seed money. Our offices were in an NCP, I think it actually used to be a loop. Our office, it was just so bad. And I'm like, oh God, one of I just got this job with Ian by, and now I'm working in a Lou in a car park, and this is not going to work. And after about 18 months, I just left. You're in company. Ian, was Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S. Ian S And he had a really cool office in the South Mountain Street. And I just really liked him. He was really funny. And I said, can I work for you? And he went, doing what? I said, I want to start a record label. And he went seriously. And I said, well, you got this great management company. I think I know how to make records. Let's just do it. And he went, I'll pay you £40 a week, and we agreed on £55, and I'm like brilliant. I don't know. I just suddenly, from feeling really, this isn't working, to really got a feeling this is going to work.

Oh, yeah. I mean, seriously naive.

Um, so, um, I met Senita in this club, the embassy club, which was a brilliant night club. Um, I liked her. She liked me. And, uh, I said, oh, I run my own record label. And I thought it's a great pick-up line. And she said, oh, I'm an artist. I went really. I said, have you made any demos? And she said, yeah, so I said, come meet me again. And we did meet again. And she did pay me some demos. And I said, she got really, really good. recording voice and at the time there was this particular kind of sound dance music, which was really becoming popular in it. It was all originating from, I think, the French part of Canada, where a lot of these records were originally made. They were all breaking out gay clubs across the UK. And I just had this idea, the Sunita, which was so beautiful, so much fun. And I thought, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to make a record with that. And I'm going to break it through the clubs across the UK. And I just had this crazy idea in my head for a title. And I said to this guy, I hadn't had a hit before. This is Anita blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I want to record this is how I think I'm going to break it. I want it to be called so matcha. I need that. I looked at me like, right? So we made two records. One was called so matcha. The other one was called. God, you've got it. Is the other side's through Zing? This is the record. That's it. Oh my God. That's a great sleep. It's fantastic. Yeah. That's right. So matcha and cruising. The problem was is The guy I was working with says to me, I'm expanding into book publishing. I'm like, OK, fine. So he didn't really take any notice of what I was doing. And then he said to me, I've been a public company, basically wants to buy my business, blah, blah, blah, blah. Great. I'm shutting down the record label. Are you kidding? I've just, I've just made this record. I think it's going to be a hit anywhere. No, I'm shutting it down. And I said, what does that mean for me? He said, well, you're out of a joke. And I said, look, You, I know you've made a lot money. You're probably going to make a ton more. Do me a favor. Would you just give me 5,000 pounds? I don't want to salary, but with that money, I will make the video. I'll get it distributed, blah, blah, blah. Recorded, biddy, everything. And he won't, and we think about it. And I kept calling him over the weekend. And eventually, he said, OK, fine, 5,000, and that's it. So I thought, OK, that I think should be enough. Um, and that was, you know, I suppose one of the biggest turning points in my life if he had said no. At that point, I'm not sure what I would have done. What would you have done? I would have hustled it from somewhere. Because I really did believe in this. The minute I heard the record from, I just thought, this is going to be a hit. How'd you know? Just felt it. You know, I had a good, the funny thing is when I first, when I actually made my first record, The producers said, you will come down to the studio. And I said, no, and he said, why? I said, because I don't want to know how a record is made. He said, why? He said, because I want to listen to it as anybody who buys records. If I know how a record is made, it's going to sound different to me. So to this day, I don't know how a record is actually made. I don't know how it started. Does someone play a bass line or keyboard? I mean, I literally haven't got a clue. Because I know it would be an all-mer- it's like when people do magic on my shows. I'm not the person who goes, I know how you did that. I go, I believe in magic. And I will literally make myself believe in magic. And with music, it was sort of the same thing, which is I don't want to know too much. I don't want to pretend that I can read music because I can't. I don't want to make myself believe that I can be a producer because I probably couldn't be a very good producer. But I think I could be a very good A&R person, which is finding artists, find them the right song. And then, you know, break the record. And it took me about a year and a half to break that record. It was tough.

Completely. A hundred percent that. I mean, you've hit the nail off the head. This is exactly that. And also, I didn't want to ever you know, because I've met some successful producers, you know, over the years, you know, and I had this vision of, because I heard stories of A&R people who went into studios pretending they understood how to make a record and hadn't got a clue. In fact, one guy actually had literally a piece of metal like a train track or something, literally a piece of iron, and he had it on his studio wall, and he called it the whackometer, because all these idiot A and R guys used to come in. Yeah, I don't really like the mix of the record, and he'd go, yeah, no exactly what you mean. Let me just adjust this. So he would just pull the beef down, and the guys would go, night and day. And I couldn't think of anything more embarrassing. So I've always been the first to say, I don't know how a record's made. I can't read music. I haven't really got a clue, but I think I would say I do have a good ear for a hit or a potential hit.

Well, I think you can do that if you believe it yourself. And I did have this strong belief in myself that finally I'd found something I could do, which was make a record, you know, make a terrible video. And I mean, obviously we used to have to physically manufacture the records. So I didn't have a lot of credit. So I had to do a lot of deals, you know, with these people, look, I'll pay you if you'll make me attend, I did 10,000 was the minimum and most something. I mean, the whole thing. Well, I had to go through to get this record into the charts and it was all about getting into the top 40. And it took me three times, first time it flopped, second time it flopped. And then what I did was I said to the warehouse, I said, what is the problem? They said, well, the record's selling, but it's not, it keeps selling the sign. But it's not enough to get it into the faulty. So I said, well, why don't we hold the order? And they said, well, we're not really supposed to do that. In other words, just say it's out of stock on the computer. But it's not out of stock. Just don't. let them have the record when they order it. In other words, let's build up the back orders. So we built up whatever the back order was and then all the people who'd order record three months ago, four months ago, suddenly all these records arrived that week and it worked. It got the record into the top 40. It squeezed in and I got a breaker on top of the pops and the record just exploded after that. And here's the crazy thing is the guy who gave me the money to run the record label goes off and merges with this company, a public company. and it goes bust. Oh, the public company went bust. It goes bust and and that's part of the reason why I went broke because all the time, there was me on my own literature with one person running the record label and we made a lot of money on that one single. But actually, the mother company was broke. So at the time I had the hit, everything suddenly crumbled at that point simultaneously. So I have my first hit and I'm broke.

Well, yeah. I mean, not many people say this. You know, most people, you know, will say, yeah, I know a lot about making records and this and that. That's a very different skill set. You know, my skill set, I suppose, is similar is, you know, fortunately, you know, getting it right as to what I believe people will like in whatever I do. That's really what it comes down to.

Absolutely right and also understand because the one word you're going to hear all the time when you're starting off is no. It's just that word you hear over and over and over again because people are nervous. And if you really, really, really trust something because, you know, I'm looking at that sleeve now. I cannot tell you how many times the word no was described in the breaking of that record. And I had to trust my own gut as all I had. I could have gone, you know what? It's over the guy shutting the thing down, but I really had this conviction that other people would like it. And I would take the white label into clubs and I would get the DJ to play the record and I would see the reaction. sometimes not so good, other times amazing. And that was enough to give me that conviction, which is, yeah, this is what I call a crossover record. It can become a big pop record.

Well, it wasn't the label that owed the money. It was me. because all of us were encouraged to buy shares in this company because we were told the company was doing really, really well. So the bank manager was practically forcing me to borrow money because he said the shares are going to go up in value at the same time. I thought everything was just going to be wonderful. So I bought a house. I bought a Porsche of course. I had a gold credit card which no one explained to me how that works in terms of the interest rates. So I'm living it up. And when it all came crashing down, yeah, I owed the bank. nearly 500,000 pounds. So I had to go in and see the bank and they had the nice guy and they had the nice guy and the not so nice guy was, okay, where's the money? Right, or you lent it to me, you know where it's just gone. And the other goes like, yeah, well, you know, it was partly our form blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I said, look, all I can tell you is if you bankrupt me, I don't care because I don't have anything. I don't have a job. I don't have any income. I've just got this debt. It all went the whole lot even when I sold the house. I still owed money on the mortgage. So I was I was on paper bankrupt. Yes, so I moved back in with my mum and dad and that was really told me what great people they were because there wasn't one moment where eaters and said, you know, you failed or this or that, it was like, it's a life lesson assignment and you'll get over it. And I managed to find a bank amazingly to lend me because I basically, I negotiated the debt down. We worked out what the interest was over the period of time. what the capital some was. And then I got them to half that. And I said, somehow, I'll pay it back to you. So I found another bank who just backed me. I just sold myself. And I said, look, you know, my first record I ever made went to number two, whatever it was in the chart, sold a million copies. This is what my career is going to be. What happened was without my control. And he said, I don't know, I've got a feeling about you. I'm prepared to lend you some money to pay back the other bank. We meant they didn't become bankrupt. So I went back to live with my mum dad and it was actually quite an interesting time because I remember and I've told the story a lot is that I had to get from a particular destination in the West End to where my parents lived and I had about five pounds cash and I remember thinking it's literally all the money I've got left in the world. And I'm not sure the five quids could have covered a tax rate. I think, I know, we just about made it. I'm sorry about the tip because I haven't gotten any more money. It was about 10 p.m. or something. Fortunately, I had a very, very good lawyer, a guy called Tony Russell. And I said to Tony, look, I'm in a not a great place. I'd met him actually, because he represented George Michael. And he sued me when I made a mega mix of which we used to do. We used to literally get in session signals. and say Kylie Mino, just record eight Kylie Mino records with someone who sounded like Kylie Mino. mixed them, so we call them mega mixes. And they would, they'd sell about 10, 20,000 copies. We used to export them all over the world. I did a wham one. We got sued by George Michael. That's how I met my lawyer because he was representing George. And I said, I'd rather you represent me next time. And he was brilliant because he said, look, I think Simon weirdly, What's happened to you is the best thing that's ever happened. And I said, why? I said, I'm broke. I don't have a job. He said, but you succeeded so far Simon with everything you put out. Because I had success with some other records along the way. He said, I think you should get a label deal, which means that you own part of the company. with a major label. So I'm like, okay, if you can get me, if you can get my own brilliant. And we went to meet two companies on the same day, BMG and Universal. And literally that day, at the end of the day Tony calls me, he said, I've had two calls, I don't go on. Universal has said no, I'm like shit. BMG has said yes, I'm like seriously, there's a caveat. got one year and we did in that one year you got to sell X amount of records. And I'm like, I'll do it. And I did. And that was kind of how I got myself back up and running again. By the way, the other thing I should mention is I said Tony, by the way, I don't have any money to pay. The lawyer, I said so, you know, I'm not sure I can afford you. And he said, well, I believe in you Simon. I think one day you will end up repaying me. And I'll always remember that. And years later, of course, you know, we did a lot of deals together. And of course, I repaid him. But I mean, the fact that he was there for me at that moment. I mean, that was again a life-changing moment to me.

You said that in your book, I don't mean to be rude, but... Ah, what it was, because I realised very, very quickly that It was unlikely I was going to be able to sign or find singer-songwriters. So I was going to have to find artists who needed songs written for them. So I needed to find the best popwriters in a literary in the world. I heard this record on the radio. And I just thought, wow, whoever this is, this record is brilliantly made. And I found out it was produced by Stockgate, a consultant, no one had heard of them at this point. So I call up here. And I said, hi, my name is Simon Cowell, blah, blah, blah. Can I meet you anyway? Yeah. So I went down to his studios and we met We were sitting on these literally wooden boxes. The studio was like a real mess. And I said, I've got this record. I'm about to put out and he put on so much. I took it off. I said, I went, yeah, I know. Will you produce a follow-up when he went? No. I said, would he be no? I thought, I thought I was doing him a favor. And he went, I'm too busy. And I said, doing what? And literally, the place was falling apart. And he gave me this awful wink. He's went, you'll see. And then the next three to six months, the whole stockache and the mortement explosion just happened. Because obviously, Pete had been making other records in the meantime, which no one had heard. And Al, nowhere. It all of his records were just hits. So I thought, OK, I've got to persuade him to write Cineater's follow-up. So I just used to turn up a studio literally every single day and make tea, sit in the studios, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they were so busy that they didn't really notice me. And after a year and a half, Pete, was in the studio in the internet, so why are you always here? And I said, well, I'm trying to work out how you do it. And he went, I'm not paying you. I said, I don't want to get paid. I just, I want you to one day write her follow up. And a few months after that, I was in my office. I get a phone call. I've got you hit mate. And I got the cap went down to his studio and he paid me the demo of Toy Boy and I thought that's going to be a gigantic record for him internationally as well. I could feel it. And Pete, you know, made it everything because Pete again, I mean Pete will pretend Unlike me, he'll say, oh, of course, I know how to produce records, blah, blah, blah. He may do, but Pete's skill is I have always described Pete as the best DJ in the world. He would, he could go to any city in England at one in the morning, and he would note instinctively what records to play. to the audience that were in that venue. And he made everything simple, which is you find a great artist, and you matched them with a great pop record. And that was it.

I took the view. It didn't matter to me. What the record was as long as it sold a lot of records. So it just occurred to me one day. I forget what it was. It might have been I think it was the wrestling federation or something. Someone told me they'd sold out Wembley Stadium, you know, the American wrestlers. Yeah, yeah. In 80,000 seats in like 27 minutes and I'm like, why? And so I learnt a bit more about them, you know, they're selling everything and I'm thinking actually, their fans are so crazy about them, they'll buy an album. So I met them and I said, have you ever considered doing this? And they went, no, and I said, well, I'll pay you X as an advance. I phoned up Pete Waterman. I had you passing making album for the rest of this. I'll do it instantly. He just got it. And we got all, we flew all these wrestlers over from America. They all turned up as their characters. It was hysterical. The undertaker, Hulk Hogan, you name it. They were all there. And my boss at the time, was so desperate for me not to do this. She actually walked down on her knees seriously and was praying and said, look Simon, I am begging you not to do this because it's going to be such a catastrophic failure and I'm like, what I'm doing here, I just don't see, don't understand why you don't get it.

Yeah. You've summed it up very eloquently and that is exactly it. However, and you know this, what is very straightforward to us is not straightforward to other people. They're thinking He's gone completely mad. I mean, no, but I'm thinking, yeah, but you're not a seven-year-old boy. You know, this is who's going to buy the record. You know, this is somebody who's going to buy a board game or blah, blah, you know, a serial with the wrestlers on it. Whatever. You know, I did it with the power ranges. Zigg and Zang. I didn't care as long as it sold records. Was it this one? That's it. Oh my god, we had so much fun doing this. Really, really, really did. And you know what was interesting is actually when I made the video, I kind of turned myself into a kid again because you sort of have to believe it. for it to work, you know, because I treated it as if this was a serious record. The record had to be a great record.

And that's hard. Yeah, well, I didn't think I thought logically it made a lot of sense. I used to sit in these A&R to part meetings with really, really serious A&R people who would literally go bright red with anger when I would play them something like this. You're making a mockery of this label and the music business is like, well, it cares. It's number one in the charts in 28 countries. I just didn't understand why people would take it so seriously.

It actually was a fun project. And when I worked at BMG, I got to know a lot of the people who worked in the TV sales department. And these were the girls who would literally get orders from the record shops. And I got to know all of them. And they were really, really fun people. But they were like the background. But they were, I used to call them the punters. They completely got it. And I always used to say, if you hear anything, Just let me know. You know, if it is a demand for something, I always just just want to know what's going on every day. And one particular day, I said, anything happened this morning and they went, yeah, we're getting a lot of calls about something that was sang on soul, just hold you last night. So, anyway, cuddle on the story short. I tracked down Robson and Jerome, and I said, hi, I'm Simon Cowell, blah, blah, blah, blah. I kind of got Jerome to say yes, Robson just wasn't having it. So, I was like a stalker. And we could not let me go. I got hold of his parents. Everyone is friends. I mean to the point, I think I got a legal letter saying could you stop harassing my clients? And it's like, well, when he says, yes, I'll stop harassing him. And eventually he agreed to a meeting. And I'm so excited. I'm in the cab going to the meeting. And then I suddenly went, Christ, I don't know what he looks like, because I've never watched the show. What do I do? So, and we were meeting in this blind bar or something. So, I just walk in, and I'm like, hi, I'm sorry. And then there's hands shut up, robs, and I'm like, hi, and we sit down. I said, here's the dip. I'll pay you both 50,000 pounds each to go into the recording studio, lay down your vocals. And if you say no, you keep 50 grand each. And he looked at me in the way you serious. I mean, yeah. So, literally, that the following day, they said, right, we'll do it. Thinking, well, rather that bout to make 50 round each for a day's work, a maneuver can put the record out. So, I get them in as quickly as possible, and I get a phone call from Robson. I want to see you. Oh dear. So I walk in, did lay down the vocals, and that's it. What's the problem? And he goes, you are a complete sea word. And I went, why? He said, because you knew exactly what was going to happen, didn't you? And I don't know what you're talking about, is that, yes, you do. is to put it on and they played me the record and they both realized at that moment the record was going to be a hit record and I kind of forced them into doing it and they were happy at angry at the same time. For two years, they were the biggest selling artists in the UK. I mean, they outsold oasis, everyone. And really, it was absolutely, I cannot tell you, we had some, we couldn't make enough records. We sold so many records.

Yeah, some of the number one. I mean, I think all the requisite number one. It was actually quite incredible. And that was probably the thing that really cemented this thing about my my career, which was absolutely trust your gut go completely in an unconventional way and that more than anything else made me realize the power to the because it also when I eventually did see the episode and I saw how it was cut and the storyline and just how everything worked and why there was such a demand for that record it was wow that's a great lesson

Well, I can relate to what is happening to a lot of people in the music business right now, which is the frustration they must feel, which is, I'm talented. I've uploaded my music and I'm not getting anywhere. What do I do next? And I know what they're feeling is and what I decided to do was Why don't I go with a slightly different direction for everybody else? I don't want to be part of the herd. If I follow everyone else, I'm just going to be a sheep. And I don't want to be a sheep. I'd rather be somebody slightly unusual, but successful rather than safe, cool, whatever. So I always say, particularly today, you've got to make noise amongst the noise. And that means, you know, do your research, you know, if you're going to cover a song, don't copy the original, you know, find a song that could have been written 12 months ago, but actually was written 30 years ago. And rearrange the song, do something different with it. You know, there's so many things you can do. which are different to what other people are doing. And because that really is about getting your first step on the ladder, which is proof that you can make some noise amongst everybody else. And I do know what that feeling of frustration felt like. However, is also about trusting your gut as well.

Yeah, and don't be afraid of what other people say about you for doing that. You know, because, you know, when people say it's not cool or whatever, well, who defines what is cool or what isn't cool. You know, this is just about you, your career, your passion. And if other people You know, mock you for being different, then I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe. That would just bore me. I've been called so many terrible things from serious people in the music business, but it just... It just doesn't really matter, you know?

Is it a muscle you've had to train? You know, the only thing that bothered me was, like I said, when I first tried to get my record played on radio one and I saw the process and I thought, this is something I can't change. I cannot change. A stuffy old produces mind. about liking a record he knows nothing about. So I have to find a way to force that person to play the record and the way I can do that is to get it into the charts. So I have to find a way to get it into the charts that forces them to play the record on the top 40 count now. That's always what I had in my head. In other words, if you really, really believe in it and the conventional part isn't open to you, then you've got to go right. Then how do we navigate a slightly different path that eventually gets to what we want? Let's not go the obvious route. And, you know, I'm not going to lie every time I do anything new, there's always part of the thrill is it may not work. Um, and, you know, every time I, I film a series of BGT, AGT, whatever I'm filming every year, there is one day where I'm like, it's over. It's over. I hate the accent, I'm bored. Uh, that's it. And then following day, I'm like, God, I love to show so much. I mean, I'm so up and down like that, because I can't fake how I feel. You know, when I'm bored, when I'm miserable, I, it really shows. I, and when I'm happy, then it, you know I'm happy.

Yeah. And you know what, this is my dad passed away right at this time as well. So this was a real bittersweet time for me because my dad, he never knew this, but my dad was amazing at sporting hit records. You know, I would play him certain things I was making. Oh, bless you. But I'm free to it in here. Yeah. Yeah. When I first started to have some success, and my records went to number one, he was so proud. And he, again, when I signed this band, he said, I think they're going to be huge for you, Simon. Really? Yeah. But this was a really crazy story about how we signed the band because Louis Walsh was always calling me. I've got this band in the world. I've got this band in the world. And that's OK, Louis. OK. I'll come to Dublin. I went to Dublin. He showcases this band. I absolutely cannot bear them. And I said, this is never going to work. They just don't look right, Louie. I don't think, I just, the answer's no. I think a couple of them are okay. You're wrong. I said, OK, fine, I'm wrong. But I'm not signing them. And then three months later, he calls me and he goes, I've taken your advice. Would you fly back? I might, OK, so I fly back. They start the showcase for me within 30 seconds. I said, I mean, done. You're here for my lawyer. Did you hear any more? Nope. I can see it. They sound great. They look great, blah, blah, blah. We signed them and then a month later it turns out that he has died one of the guy's hair blonde to sneak back into the band. And that's Shane, because when we audition them the second time, they all have blonde hair. I don't know why that made a difference, but it's a typical Louis story. They still succeeded though. They did fantastically well, yeah. And in fact, I think we still have the record of for I think it was their first seven singles went to number one, and I don't think that's ever happened again.

Yeah, yeah, I went to Germany to this big conference and You know, I did quite a big presentation on the group and the reaction and the room's huge. And so I also was hearing the record was really selling and I called and I could just tell something wasn't right. And I think someone said to my mum, don't tell Simon what he's there. And then I found a bat and she told me, and I'm like, I can't believe it. Because I genuinely at that point in my life, I just believed my parents were going to live forever. I mean, it was that. And yeah, it was, it was tough. However, I do believe in God and I do believe because the hardest thing when you do your parents is You can't even think about them afterwards because it's too difficult. You know, everything is. And then after a while, it's like, when I have a question in my mind, I do talk to them in my mind, what would you do? And I know what they would say. So I really do still believe there would be. But that was a bit of sweet moment. And probably, you know, I would have swapped everything. I'd succeeded, you know, kept him around, you know. And all the things that he taught me over the years, it all just, you know, It was the longest trip home for America, you know, that fly was bad.

Yeah. And you know, like I said, look, thank God, you know, He was very wise and he did give me a good steer. And like a lot of things that still do now, I still think of all of my dad say, you know, because he only lost his attempt with me once. And boy, when he lost it, it was like, I don't want to go there again. But he never hit me. Nothing like that. But he raised his voice once at me, and that was enough. But he was very, when he was angry, you knew it. But I think he would have got a real kick out of seeing me on a TV show. I know he would have just found the whole thing really, really funny.

No, no, no. That came a few years later. But, you know, at least he'd seen me, you know, succeed, you know, and that meant as much to him. I know as he did to me.

Yeah. Yeah, well, like I said, having gone through, you know, which was no question in my losing, you know, both my parents was the hardest thing ever happened to me, but I can sit here and honestly look you in the eye now and say, Because everyone says, you know, when you lose them, you know, in time, it'll get better. And you think, no, it won't. And the truth is it does, as long as you believe. And you have to believe that their presence is still there with you. And I do genuinely believe that with my mum and dad. And, um, oh gosh. My mom, she started to get dementia, but fortunately, in a sore area, she really wanted me to have a kid. And she brought him this brown blanket, and he still has it. literally everything is about the brown blanket, you know, where's my brown blanket and he said to me, when he was about two or three after, you know, she passed away, he just looked up at the sky one night and he said I'm thinking about Grandpa, Eric and Julie. And it was just the way he said it. It was like, gosh, why would you say that now? And that's when I genuinely really started to believe they are still somehow with us. You know, it's not a total loss. And I think, you know, maintaining that amazing relationship with both of them, you know, up until the point, both of them passed away. They were in my best friends, you know, I could tell them anything. We could talk about anything. And, you know, it's, it's how I feel for Eric, you know, it's just that pure love, you know, they just want the best for you. And in return, you feel the same about them and it's how I feel about it. Eric, you know, it's everything starts to become full circle, thank God, you know?

Really? Yeah, genuinely. I can say that because, of course, I really, really enjoyed every successful moment of my career. Even when things haven't gone quite to plan, there's still a story, or something to be learned from it. that combined joy versus the devastation you feel when you lose someone. It's it's it's it really is meaningless.

Well, I think particularly when I lost my mum, I just was on a dam with spiral at that point. It was like, I lost everyone. I've lost my, my, my, my, my parrot this fidelity now and what I said about the material things I've got, everything just meant nothing at that point. I was desperately unhappy. I wasn't particularly enjoying my work and I just thought, you know what, I'm just going to become a vampire then. And I would work through till 7 o'clock, edit walk in the morning, I would wake up at two or three in the afternoon, and I actually got addicted to that kind of lifestyle, which was, I just loved the intensity of, it was almost like because of the loss I'd had, I've got to find something else to fill it. And it was, I'm just going to become a ridiculous workaholic. And I was very successful, but I wasn't happy. Really, really wasn't happy. And it was like the expression is this as good as it gets, that's how I felt. There were certain people in my life at that point giving me advice who just shouldn't have been in my life. And then when I got the call from Lauren, which starts, any call which starts, although you're sitting down, you know what's coming next. It was like, are you sitting down? Yes. Well, and she told me. And yes, it did absolutely change everything in my life. I mean, it made me happy again. For me, it was perfect because, you know, like we were talking earlier on about our childhood, you know, it was just brilliant, it's like fantastic. I remember the first time I watched Jungle Book with him and I'm looking over and seeing the joy he had watching that movie. It was like, oh my god, I remember how I felt when I saw the Jungle Book.

Without question. Without question. Yeah. I really, really had reached the point where nothing mattered. Even to the point where I almost can't even remember everything from that period. It hit me so hard. I was like, because the hardest thing also was being on television as well. because I'm like, I feel like a clown here, you know, because I'm dying inside. And yet, you know, I've still got to, you know, do what I'm being paid to do. You know, as best as I could, but, you know, I put on a ton of weight. I was eating just junk. It was like, If I had got hit by a bus the following day, well, I'd be dead, but I wasn't worried about anything like that.

Yeah, the whole time was dark. Yeah. I can absolutely relate to when people reach the lowest levels, you know, you possibly can, where essentially, you know, being alive doesn't matter anymore, you know, because you just go, what if I got to live for? Did you have those thoughts? Yeah. Yeah. Not thinking I want to take my own life, but thinking if I, if If something terrible happened, it wouldn't bother me to myself. What I have learned, fortunately, is, unfortunately, we are all going to go through this, it's how we cope with it. And being able to talk about it, I've spoken publicly about mental health, particularly mental health, because there's no question. I do still suffer from depression at times. I'm really suffering from depression in the past. I am actually very thin skinned at times. Particularly when someone is disloyal. I take things like that very, very badly.

Yeah, because of the You know, a lot of what we spoke about today, you know, my upbringing, my working life, you know, nothing was ever handed to me on a plate, you know. So, but when people took the time, you know, like Pete Waterman, There have been fortunate, a lot of people over the years who've been amazing have come in and helped me achieve, because I could never have done what I did without the people who worked with me over the years. I've just been very lucky in the May, 99% of the people have been just fantastic. However, I I, yeah, I take it really badly when someone who you consider to be a friend really writes the narrative afterwards and they become, because things have been worked out for themselves, they have to blame somebody else, right? And it's like, but we're all in that position, you know? There's certain things I can't talk to. I would talk to you privately and privately about why that particular time some other people I was working with look again on the bright side as long as you're happy today which I am thank God and I'm at peace today thank God then then a lot of the bad things that happened previously It's like, well, that's your destiny. You know, if the lights have been red and said a green on a certain day, Eric may not have been conceived. That's how I look at life, you know?

So you're your media? I have it, but I don't look at it.

You don't have a phone at all. Well, I have a car phone, which I occasionally use, which is actually an American phone and I swear, I don't even know how to use it. If you don't have a mobile phone, I have one that sits in the car. Okay. Nine times out of ten, I'll use somebody else's phone because I don't even know how to work in it anymore. I hate them so much. Because I do why, I think they're boring. It's almost like, for me, it's like having a toaster with you all the time. It's like, it's a toaster. And a phone is just as boring. You know, it's like toaster's nice and occasionally a telephone calls nice, but not all the bloody time. When did you make that decision to get rid of your phone? When I realized by not being on it for about three or four months a year. I was happier that time. And then when it was like, oh, God, it's time to turn my phone back on. I start to dread it. And then one day, I thought I'd lost it. And it's, oh, God, I've lost my life and it's stopping so dreading. It's a stupid telephone. I don't use 99% of the things on it. And I actually, really like talking with people like we're talking now. I like meeting people and I like talking from a landline if I have to because the sounds nicer as well.

So what I do weirdly, it kind of helps because You hear about the important things. in life. You don't hear about the unimportant things. And that's the best way I suppose describing the advantages. So when something really serious happens within seconds, you'll hear about it. When it's just some piece of gossip or something, which I'm really not interested in, and someone said, did you hear about so and so it's like, no, and I'm not interested, because I'm not.

I always say, honestly, if you want to get hold of me, and you know me, you'll get hold of me. You just will. I'm not. Promise. You really will. You will get hold of me. Obviously, you know, I have a PA. I have a partner. I have friends. How does she get hold of you? She calls me a home. And I mean, it runs crazy.

Oh my god, I didn't know where to start.

31. Well, I would say workout genuinely. from the good things that have happened, how much time are you spending time on? Where your gut is telling you, this isn't worth the effort. But your ego is sort of saying, but it's your idea, so it must work. There are always going to be moments where you have made the wrong decision. And sometimes it's bailing out earlier than you should. Rather than just, let's just hang on to that. Also, understanding that certainly when you're doing something creative, I believe that you can only really be creative when you're not tired. I'm certainly at my best when I'm feeling fit, I'm feeling happy, then I'm in a completely different mindset. Because I still see each episode before it goes out about three or four times. So don't forget these episodes are about the length of a movie. So I'm watching the equivalent of two movies a week. Every second, every sound cue, every audience shot. I mean, it's the focus you've got to give it. it's unbelievable. So I think I would have said, you know what, so I'm wondering, do you enjoy what you're doing a little bit more? Is the fifth day going to really make a difference if you're working better on the four days? Is not what you're going to make any differences the truth? By the way, it's much more fun having a three day weekend than the two day weekend. And is just stuff like that, I suppose.

Yes, of course. Yeah, I did drag a few people along with me and I apologize. Having said that, one thing you can't escape is that to be good at anything, you've got to put the hours in. It is hard work. I mean, look, yes, people wouldn't have lottery. You hear about these crazy success stories, but they are one in that literally a billion. For me, the majority of people I've met who haven't inherited anything, but I've just built something on their own. They've done it because they're talented. They've got great instincts and importantly, they have really, really put the hours in. Because if somebody You know, it comes to work for me. It's a 21 years old and says, you know, 530 right, I'm off and don't bother calling me on the weekend. I'm going to go, well, I'm not going to bet the house on you. You know, I When I was younger, genuine me, I didn't even think about weekends. It was like when I was a runner, you know, I would do 18-hour days and love every second of it because for every day I was learning something more. And then I think, you know, there is a point where when hopefully you realize that you've kind of got your groove, you know what you're doing, you're being successful, you've got a good team around you. Then I think it's a question of, okay, well then don't kill yourself in the process. I mean seriously, find, and this is going back to phones, which is, and I'm the same with emails, is If even if it's great news and you get the news at 7, 8, and clock at night, you can't just go right, I'm going to sleep now because your brain's going to go into overdrive and I think getting good sleep is crucial, absolutely crucial. You hear about these people who survive and for us sleep at night like How? You know, I need like 10 hours if possible. I really believe that sleep is the best medicine your body can have and the ability to be able to sleep peacefully. You know, that's really, really important.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, yeah, it was pretty bad. I think it's an understanding. Again, there is a silver lining. Because I wasn't fit. prior. I thought I was fit. I looked okay, but I wasn't fit. I was really getting up. Even though I changed my hours, I was still getting up, going straight to the telephone, and I would sit by that telephone for hours and hours and hours and hours. And I really wasn't getting the steps in. I wasn't eating properly and all this kind of stuff. So once I You know, it was a bad accident. And I knew it was bad the second it happened. And the recovery was pretty difficult. However, I had a fantastic nurse. And she literally, she was like, you know, how a cook who just pushes the bird out. She just one day said to me, just get out. into your garden, a illegal walk, 20 space, just do it. And they did it. And it was hard. And then I just built up, built up, built up. And then I started to build up a step count over time. And then when I really had to put the proper steps in, but my feet were just like, like, ragged because they weren't used to walking. So it was weird. If I had to go back in time again to get to where I am today, I would have gone through that again. As bad as it was, the upside was worth it because if I hadn't broken my back, I don't think I would have ever realised how unfit I really, really was.

Well, again, the hardest thing was because, you know, the guy had to, it got so bad, I had to sign a form, you know, just who had the operation, which was, you know, if this doesn't work out, would you allow us to switch the machine or I'm like, well, that's encouraging, just perform about to go under. Um, so I'm thinking, oh, this could be, this could be it. Um, but I was in so much pain. I was just thinking, just please, please just get me out of this pain. And it The first three days afterwards, I was like, actually, it's painful, but not as bad as I thought. And the doctor said, yeah, you've got pain receptors in your spine right now. They're going to wear off in a couple of days. Get ready. And when they wore off, it was like, whoa, it was unbelievable. And then I'm on all these pain killing drugs, blah, blah, blah. And you know what I'm doing? I'm fully my lawyer. saying, where's my will? And then I'm also trying to sell a show at the same time. Unfortunately, my PA knew I was just all over the place. And she was saying, um, yeah, the person you're trying to get hold of isn't available right now. But, you know, obviously, I was just so delirious. I was just all over the place for the first three days because after traumatic or injury like that, you are. But I had a fantastic surgeon. I really got off the painkillers much earlier than they thought I would like a month earlier, and that was for me really significant. And then when I started to put the steps in and getting up to 20, 30,000 steps a day without my feet falling apart, it was like, actually, it was worth it, genuinely worth it.

It was, yeah, and I think it was probably because after that injury, and all the time I had to think about things, I really had a chance to kind of really think things through and go. it would be actually crazy for me not to go to therapy after everything have gone through. and talk to somebody who is an expert, who you can trust, who can advise you. And it's a bit like really going to the gym, you know, it's like, wow, you feel great afterwards. And it's, you know, you think, initially, you know, it's going to be embarrassing. How do I start the conversation? But there's a, there's so goodness, so well trained at what they do. It gave me, I don't know, it just made me feel better in so many ways because stuff that used to bother me, I would talk to them about and you almost kind of get the answer, you know it's going to be but someone needs to tell you other than yourself, if that makes sense, you know the answer, but you kind of need someone to validate it.

Yeah. My god, ours would make the best reality show.

As a good question. I think I met a few people who had who were in the entertainment business. And we spoke a lot about how do you deal with this, how do you deal with that? And they all, well, two people in particular said, we went into therapy. And they said, have you tried it? And I went, no. They said, try it once. See how you feel. And when I went, it was very interesting because what you realize is that most of us have actually bottled stuff out. you know somewhere in our bodies and it's like a release. and we all need that release because there's something in your brain which you haven't spoken about or something that's bothered you and you don't know who to talk about or whatever or whatever and actually it's not a weakness if anything gets a strength to be able to admit that we are all vulnerable that we're none of this a perfect that we do need help and there are people much smarter than us who can just help you and why not take advantage of that? Because I promise you, I don't believe there's a single person in the world who would go to a great therapist and then walk out and go, yeah, I didn't need that. in the same way we're discovering things about nutrition and you know food and the importance of that and you know a lot of what we were talking about social media and some of the negativity all these things you know we we're not programmed I don't believe to deal with so much so so quickly so we've got to find you know different ways of not just sorting your bodies out, but sorting your mental. It's not even mental health. It's just life. It's that. You know, just having someone who's trained to give you better priorities, other things to think about. Things you don't have to go out and about. All those kind of things I learned through doing it. Has it been impact on you? Massive. Yeah, massive, yeah. And in fact, I got out the habit only because of my schedule and I'm due back I think about two or three weeks time. And I literally can't wait because I really do think I found someone special. His name is Justin. If he's listening just in, you are the best. I adore you. And I consider him a friend. I really, really like him, respect him.

I think he or if we had a list of what's the most important things the top 10 list of priorities. He's changed the order of what would have been my one to 10. He shuffled the order. So something that might have been number eight might have become number three now. And he's simplified my way of thinking, which is, he said to me, Simon, can you actually overthink a lot of things, by the way? And I'm like, actually, you've got a point I do, actually. And a lot of what we've been talking about today a lot of this has come from working with Justin. And like I said, I have absolutely no embarrassment whatsoever about the fact that I needed it. I think like I said, a lot of people in my opinion do need help full stop at some point in their lives. And it is nothing to be embarrassed about. It isn't Eric.

and therefore be patient and learn and the learning and the getting there is as enjoyable as being there because in my opinion it is having both sides. I've been at my happiest when I broke. I've been at my unhappiest at times when I've been wealthy and I've also been happy when I've been successful. The most important thing is on a Sunday night you want that feeling of excitement that Monday is coming and it's something to look forward to and that this is what we're supposed to do in our lives is do something which we enjoy and it's not a question of having more than other people or less irrelevant. There's always people who are less than you and more than you. That's not really the measure of your happiness. Your happiness stems from achieving something, believing in something, and just loving what you do. I'm very lucky because I still love what I do. I mean, yes, there are times where I'm like, God. This is a long day today, or, you know, hasn't been a great day, but overall, I pinch myself still because I'm fortunate enough that I am able to do something which I really, really love doing. I love creating things, I love thinking of things. And I also like the idea that somehow I'll make it happen. And even if it takes me 10 years, If I still have that strong belief, somehow I'll try and make it happen. And if it doesn't quite work out, at least I can say we're like, give it a shot. And it also say to don't blame other people if it doesn't work out. You know, you have to trust your instincts and you have to have a strong work ethic. But enjoy that. And that's why, you know, as I said, finding something which you're passionate about is, it's the most important thing more than anything else. because like I said, you know, going back to the time when I was in the post-trume and then in the state agent, you know, I'd loved being in the malroom a thousand times more than being in the state agent. It just, you know, was a great example, you know, when I You know, change jobs to make more money. You actually made me more unhappy. Because I didn't like the people, you know, he did the job. And I'll say all the say days into bad, by the way, this particular company at the time might be right now. We're awful then. But that's what I think I would say to anyone I like or didn't like, you know, find your passion and then try and be the best of it. legacy legacy yeah that's been front of mine for you recently hasn't it yeah yeah it is a lot yeah um and to your point you know when you uh you know when we're doing something like this or something I've made in the past I'm always aware or from editing a clip on a great contest and I'm very aware that that is their legacy as well and I want to make that clip like perfection in my mind, you know, I want every second of it to be beautiful, cinematic, you know, and because they live on life, on life forever, these clips now. But yeah, legacy is, I think about this a lot, definitely. And I think, somewhere. I read. It was a great quote about, I'm going to say this really badly, but it's along the lines of, if you live your life with your eyes open wide enough, you will eventually find the person you're looking for. I, my Pete Waterman, you know, because don't think Certainly when you're younger, that you've got all the smarts to do it yourself, you know, being smart is finding the person who is smarter than you, who is willing to take you under their wing. But to get that person to take you under their wing, you've got to show them I'm prepared to put the work in as well.

Oh, well, I think I like people. I mean, I genuinely like people. I remember being about six years old and seeing somebody, I think it was the ideal home exhibition. And I mean, oh my God, it's so insert. I'm completely star-struck, and I just went over. Hi, can I have your autograph? And he went, no. And I was like, I was destroyed. And I have never, ever. said no to somebody. It drives Lauren and even Eric sometimes crazy because I don't care in the middle of dinner or whatever I'm doing. If someone wants a picture and autograph, I'll always say yes. Because I take it's a compliment, you know, because it's they watch something I've made and I also know in reverse what it feels like. If someone's rude to you, because if you don't like people, you can't do this job. So I hope my legacy will be that I kind of achieved everything without a head start. treated people well. That's what I would like to think I'll hand over to Eric, both of those things.

It's like, yeah, yeah, it is. But I think what concerns me a lot at the moment is, and I hope things are going to change, is that I do see bullying on the rise. And I think that is partly to actually a lot to do with social media. I do see unfortunately people unhappy because they think they need material things in their life to make them happy. Look, of course, it's better to have money than not, but it's not everything. Like I said, I can genuinely say that because I've experienced both. I prefer to when I had money, but it wasn't the end of the world when I didn't. So I just I get sad a lot of the times when I think about people who think, well, you know, I'm not great at school. So, what am I going to do with my life or I need everything by the age of 21 and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, actually, you know what? doesn't have to be that way. You know, if you really, really do have the patience, and like I said, you might have a friend who's got a more flashy job and blah, blah, blah, but if you vote for the long to call, you're going to be better off at the end. You know, it's trying to get that message to people, you know?

Well, uh, personally, I think it's better to have success than no. Yeah. What is great? I mean, what I said to the boys and you know, it was quite obvious, you know, once they were on the show, they were going to be really, really successful with the right records. I mean, they just, for me, they would like the perfect group.

Oh gosh, I actually don't know. I mean, I know they were very successful. They sold a lot of records. They made a lot of money. I said to them a lot of what we're talking about, which is Don't ever complain about paparazzi because they are going to take you pictures. Don't complain about invasion of privacy because people are going to always want to a pitch taken with you. Don't complain about the long hours because there are going to be long hours. So if none of this If any of this is a problem, just do something else. I mean, because I promise you, all of this is going to come with it. There will be times where you're going to go, my God, this is a growing schedule. And, oh my God, what can't someone just leave me alone for one minute, because I want to have my dinner. Why are you taking my picture? That is going to come with the territory. And the truth is, it's worth it. It's a very, very, very, it's not even a price debate. It just comes with it. It's hard work. You are going to become well known. And you are going to lose a lot of your privacy. If you want to be in a accountant, you're not going to have any of those issues. It just won't be as much fun. So, you know, some people want to be accountant, some people want a more exciting life. I've always been a huge fan of bands because It's a much easier way. First of all, I think it's more fun being in a band than being a solo artist. Particularly if you like your bandmates. It's a brilliant way to get noticed if you want to become a successful solo artist. It's like they've all become. I'm being in the band was the catalyst to that. I'm about to do it again this year.

Yeah, and I'm doing it because, you know, right now there isn't, I don't think a band who has been as good as one direction, since one direction. in my opinion. And if you look at the amount of solo artists versus bands right now in the world, import music, it is unbelievable. I mean, if you think of Motown and that whole era, it was as many bands as there were solo artists. So something has gone a miss. And the only way I've No, to put a band together is somebody has to audition them. So we just thought, you know what, if I don't do it this year, I'm going to really regret it. So let's just do it. And we're going to document the whole process. So this time, you're going to see exactly what happens. from the minute we go, we're gonna do it, to how you logistically do it, how do you choose the people blah, blah, blah, because I think it will be interesting. And, but there's no safety blank on this, in terms of, I haven't gone to a record label and go and say, right, I'm doing this, will you guarantee me a record deal? I've got to hope that the band are good enough to get a record deal. What's the secret source? People, I mean, it is personality. I mean, I think that's the one thing about one direction is they all had great personalities. And they were just interesting people. And as the first time I saw them as a band after we asked them to be in a band, I was in Spain. And I saw them walking up the beach. And as they're walking up the beach, everyone's looking around. No one ever heard them at this point. I thought it's unbelievable. Everyone's looking at these five boys. Is it the already stars? And there was something that was just this glow about them. And because you know, I've had hits with bands, I've had misses with bands. And it could be that I was 1% off or I was 80% off. I don't know. But when it doesn't work, there's no money in the world that will make something that isn't going to work. It's just one of those things. You just got to hope you get lucky and find the right people.

I don't know. Don't know. It could be that I'm completely useless now. All I know is if I had to trust anyone to do it, I would trust me more than anyone else. I would.

is a feeling, yeah, it has to be. And this is the difficulty is that you are selling an act to somebody who I'm not. You know, your fans are going to be primarily teenagers. So you've kind of got a guess what? that audience are going to like but don't overthink it because I've seen a lot of people particularly recently put bands together and they walk out and within one second I'm thinking all of this is wrong I can tell that someone's told them what to wear, I know what their spills gonna be. It's all rehearsed, nothing spontaneous. And I'm thinking, why does that person, whoever's behind the scenes, why can't they let them just be themselves? That's why I said to one direction, which is, look, I can just give you a broad kind of over, like I said, this is what's gonna probably happen when you're successful. And then after a few years, you're going to want to leave the band. That's going to happen and blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, no, no, we're going to be friends forever. So yeah, whatever. Do what you like. And that was sort of it. Just say, when you got a problem come to me. It's really down to you to make this work. You've got to love the records you make. You've got to influence the records you make. You can't dance, so don't try and dance. Don't have a higher stylist because you've already got great taste. And just be yourselves. And really, really have fun. Because you're like I said, there will be days where you're going to go on. I'm really tired. I don't like this and no one will leave me alone and then in ten years time you're going to look back on this and go, wow, we had a blast.

Yeah. It always, I'm not a lie. I mean, the first time I met Harry, he sang a Stevie Wonder song, which spoke about pies. So I'm not sitting there thinking you're going to become one of the most successful artists in the world in 12 years time. I mean, no one would have thought that. I just thought, you know, unbelievable, be charismatic in your fun. and the audience are like, like, you and great. And then for whatever reason it didn't work out in my opinion, for the Missola Watters, you know, for different reasons in that part of the show. And then we just had this idea in the moment to put them in a band. And then, like I said, you know, where I think pretty much all of them have done great is that they've used the group as a vehicle to go where they really want to go in their lives. And would Harry be Harry without one direction? Well none of us could answer that. I couldn't tell you. All I know is being in the group definitely made it easier. Of course. And that's why I thought interestingly about seven or eight years ago, I thought there's not going to be any need for these shows anymore because of social media. And here's the crazy thing is that the amount of UK artists that are broken globally in the last say seven years has fallen off a cliff, literally. If you think about how many global artists British have broken globally in the last seven years, it's possibly three, which is crazy. I think of three. Well, so is AI a concern and opportunity?

I think both. I don't think you'll ever beat the real thing. Having said that, it'll happen. I mean, soon arrived later, and there were all these Japanese artists who doesn't exist, and she sells out stadiums. There's no question it's going to happen, but people are always going to be more interested in the real thing. If you go to a concert, you want to see those people, you want to say I was within touching distance of that person. Not something that doesn't exist.

No, I think you're right. I think it's a, it's a, it's a point you make about the, the two opposites.

What is so fascinating as well is seeing these brands, which of 56 years old, suddenly become super huge again, whether it's Lego, whether it's Mario Brothers, whether it's Barbie, because sometimes there's this feeling of, I might just say things were better because I'm just getting cranky, which is quite depressing. And then I go, actually, no, Queen, or David Bowie, or while John, were the best artists of all time. I mean, George Michael, just is. And I don't think there's anybody in the world as good as George Michael today. I genuinely don't. I wish there was, because by the way, he was one of the nicest people I've ever met in my life. But no, I think we're just going through a very interesting time right now. And I'm a great believer in breaking out anything that's going to help you. Don't dismiss it. But I still think, you know, when again, when I was talking to one direction, I remember saying to them, how goal is for you to have enough hits that if you ever reform that you can do stadium tours. That means you've got to have about 10 hit singles. Because that's what people want to hear. They want to hear the hits. And, you know, if they ever did reform, that's exactly what would happen. Are they going to come back? I doubt it. You don't have to.

The one thing I regret is I should have kept the name.

Oh, OK. That's the problem. Could have made an animation or whatever. But when you give an artist the name, it's not yours. And that's my only regret. So if you're listening, I'll buy it back for me.

There we go. Yes. But that's the only thing I do regret, because if one of the band members for whatever reason say they don't want a tour, it can stop the others touring. And so if it was me who owned the name, it wouldn't be a problem.

I believe so, yes. I mean, I can be very naive at times, and that was me being very, very naive. So next time that will be part of the deal, I have to own the name. They could still make most of the money, but I need to own the name.

Don't eat sugar. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you so much.