Transcript for What Forgiveness Is and Isn't (Lord's Prayer Pt. 4)

So there's a few experiences more basic than being hurt or wronged by somebody and then having to sort out how you feel about them and how you're going to relate to them. What is it about forgiveness that he would want us to put it at the heart of what we pray every day?

For Jesus forgiveness is not ignoring or forgetting that somebody wronged you. Forgiveness doesn't mean you endorse or come down what this person is doing. Just the opposite. But forgiveness is a heart posture towards somebody that's wronged me. And that has to happen regardless of whether we are ever able to repair the relationship or reconcile.

And then, actually, for what we're going to talk about today, the forgiveness piece, there is actually a little third part, a little addition. So we just, there's two halves to the prayer, the prayer proper prayer proper, but there are two more little bits that comment on the forgiveness theme in the second half. It's like a little commentary on the second request, which is, forgive us our debts as we forgive those who are indebted to us. And then, Jesus comments, for if Y'all forgive others for their transgressions. Your father in the skies will also forgive you all. But if y'all do not forgive others, then your father will not forgive your transgressions. That's heavy. That's to the point. So it's very clearly this qualification to kind of let you know like this is a prayer but forgiveness is clearly a matter of high significance to Jesus for how you imagine yourself participating in what he's doing and being one of his followers. So, forgive us. Our debts, as we also have forgiven those that impended to us, and apparently there's a lot on the line with how we respond to that. Forgive us. So, forgiveness, it's a very personal reality. The experience of being wronged by somebody, and then having to sort out my feelings and my relationship to that person. Oh, this is pretty basic to the human experience. Right, being heard by somebody, having to figure out how to move forward.

Yeah, so we'll talk about that. But just forgiveness in general. I'm just naming the fact that what Jesus is putting his finger on here. And again, he assumed that his disciples would pray this every day, even multiple times a day. And most Christians throughout history have done that. What is it about forgiveness? that makes it so central to what Jesus wants to have his followers prioritize and be thinking about and aware of and anticipate and so on. That he would want us to put it at the heart of what we pray every day. So there's a few experiences more basic than being hurt or wronged by somebody and then having to sort out how you feel about them and how you're going to relate to them. Pretty basic to human life. So on one level, this is a prayer connecting to a really deep part of the human story and very personal for every one of us. It's also a theme and a concept that's just with deep roots in the storyline of the Hebrew scriptures, and the story that Jesus saw himself bringing to fulfillment. So there's also a layer of that. forgiveness played a huge role in Jesus' teaching, and in what he was doing is he announced the arrival of God's kingdom in himself, forgiveness has since played a big role in what he taught in it. So I think there's maybe three steps we could take to explore this. One would be to see the forgiveness and the storyline of the Hebrew Bible and how that all forms the backdrop for the second step. Jesus, and why he was announcing the forgiveness of sins and why this mattered to him in the moment, And then third, I think it's important when we're talking about something so personal for us to process, what are the implications of living a life of radical forgiveness? What does that involve? And what does it not involve? So there's been a big area learning for me personally and also understanding what Jesus meant by forgiveness. And so I think it's worth some time to slow down and ponder. Does that sound like a good roadmap? Yeah. Sweet, well let's start with language, thanks, in the statement of the prayer, and you do attention to one, which is in Matthew's version, it's forgive us our debts. It's using like this financial metaphor. What is curious to that about you that made you bring it up?

We've got the letter in the mail. Yeah, the Heavenly Revenue Service. Just another little side illumination on that point. Remember there's two versions of this prayer in the New Testament. The other one is in the Gospel, according to Luke. And in that version, it's not the word debts. It's the word sins. Greek word Hamartia. So forgive us our sins. So the metaphor of a financial debt, it's unique to Matthew's version of Lord's prayer. Okay, so let's start there first with the word forgive, and then I think the word debt might make a little more sense. So the Greek word used here, and again, remember, he spoke this in our Mac, but there was that Possible's early rendered decent a Greek through wider audiences. So the Greek word is a Fiamé. And this is fascinating. It means most literally to release or to let someone leave or to let them go. And then it relates to a noun, office. So a theme is the verb, office is the noun, which means a release or a letting go or emancipation to set someone free from an obligation. So this is just real quick. I copied pasted from the new international dictionary of New Testament theology and ex-Jesus. They're entry on this word. And this is interesting. This word is used in Plato and this mother early philosophers, Demosthenes. So apparently this word appears for the first time in the history of Greek. Five centuries before Jesus. So that's a long history of usage. And it's most common sense is in legal and financial contexts. So it's a financial word. Now it can be used. Actually is used in the Gospel of Matthew to let somebody go. Jesus, a Fiam is the crowd to let them go back. So in one sense it's just general to let go. Yeah. We're to release. But what at least the dictionary entry was saying was that most commonly used. Most commonly used outside of just, you let someone walk away. Right. It's most common use was in financial of releasing someone from a financial debt or obligation. So remember the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek by Greek speaking Jews a couple centuries before Jesus. And it's often called the Septuagint. But in that translation of the Hebrew Bible, the noun, this noun, release or forgiveness occurs about 50 times in all of the Greek translation. And nearly half of those occur in one chapter of Leviticus. Oh. And it's the year of Jubilee.

Every seventh year? Well, yeah, every seventh year was a year of release. Okay. And then every seven times seventh year was a year of jupilee. The translation of jupilee in the Greek Old Testament is the year of setting free. The year of release because debts are canceled in that year. Any land that you had to sell. because you went under financially that obligation is canceled and that word release that was you know got attached to became the title of both okay both the seventh year and the seven times seventh year was a year of letting go of letting go free yeah because people are set free from all their obligations debt slavery Yeah, that's right. Yep. So this is core to understanding the story underneath the word forgiveness in the teaching of Jesus. Because if you don't know that story, Jesus is teaching is unforgiveness, you're still really powerful, personal. But this is one of those areas where we need to imagine ourselves into the bigger story, Jesus saw himself as a part of. and how certain words or ideas are loaded with a backstory. And forgiveness is one of them. And that's connected to the word also to the next one to the word debt, which you drew attention to a few moments ago. And debt in Greek here means it's the same basic idea. You have incurred debt. An obligation.

Not free from. Yeah, you are not. You are bound. You're bound by it. Yep. Yeah. So in second temple Judaism, words for sin developed and changed as people use them. There's a few words in the Hebrew Bible. We made videos on the main ones. Sin, transgression, and iniquity. Yeah. It's the three power words. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sin being missing the goal.

We're just so weird because we're all doing it most of the time. Yeah.

Yeah. So, sin is the word to miss the goal or to miss the what you're aiming for. I think a decent English translation is fail.

Yeah. You're a sinner. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, this is sometimes, It's good to meet failure. It needs to play.

Yeah. But a different set of associations, I think. Yeah, I go back and forth. The King James mediated Tindale's early translation into the English-speaking world. And we've been given many great gifts from those translations into our language. And it's hard to know when to revive one of those older translations or when to just go find a new English word that communicates more effectively. And sin is one of those where I have a hard time knowing which one's better.

Go find a better word. Yeah, totally. Yeah. What sin most often means is a moral failure. Which is actually the common phrase in English, moral failure. Moral failure, yeah. Yeah, moral failure. Mm-hmm. Transgression? Yeah, it's a passion Hebrew, mostly it means betrayal to break faith with someone. So you had a common understanding of how we treat each other and then you you break that trust.

Yeah. And iniquity comes from a metaphor in Hebrew, the noun crooked, to be bent or crooked instead of straight and stable. So what's interesting, though, is that Jewish vocabulary about moral failures continue to develop through time. And you can watch it in history of Second Table Jewish Literature that another primary word arises in that time and it's the word debt. Like the word for a financial debt becomes one of the main words for wronging someone. Yeah, wronging someone. And it only makes sense in a worldview where you view other humans as an image of God. So that a wrong done to someone is a wrong simultaneously against the one whom they image. So when I wrong another person, I am in debt to God. And if I financially wrong them, you know what I mean, then I might be in that person's financial debt too. But to wrong another person is to put one in debt, moral debt with God. I owe God now. What are you on? It's a good question. It's a good question. something. I need to do something to make things right. And in second temple Judaism. I think that was true. Yeah, you need to go make repair with that person. Then you need to go repair with God through prayers of confession or offering a sacrifice in the temple as an expression of my humility and desiring to surrender back to God. So that's one level on the idea of forgiveness of what one owes God and if That hasn't been forgiven then I'm sitting in a place of indebtedness, we're being bound in need of release. This actually is a way of thinking about the whole story of Israel in the Hebrew Bible. The fact that the year of Jubilee is called the year of release, and it was every seven years and every seven times seven years. It was all a re-enactment of Israel's first release in emancipation, which was from slavery in Egypt. Yeah, let my people go. Let my people go. Yeah. So the Jubilee in the year of release was a ritual reenactment of the Exodus every seven years and every seven times seven years.

Yeah. Yeah, okay. So let's let's go back. So God releases his people out of slavery in Egypt and then he brings them to the mountain and they're entering to a covenant, the obligation with each other. And the covenant obligation, yeah, always says, hey, I'm going to bring you into a land. I'm going to give you a little Eden bless you. And if you are faithful to this terms of the covenant, you're going to get Eden around here. And then you can take that Eden and share it with each other and become the city on the hill to the nations. But if you don't, if you're not faithful to the covenant, you'll get the opposite of all the things. And these are the famous blessings and cursings of the Torah covenant. Leviticus chapter 26, Deuteronomy 28. So if you're unfaithful to the covenant, there will be scarcity and famine instead of abundance. They'll be sickness instead of health. I'm just summarizing these two chapters. They'll be just short life spans versus long life spans. You'll be defeated by your enemies instead of having victory. you'll be come slaves and be exiled from your land instead of having authority over your land and security and safety. So Moses anticipates at the end of the Torah like, oh yeah, these people are going to blow it. And then the narrative goes on to say, and they blow it. So by the time you're sitting in Babylonia, next aisle, blue is that a translation of sand transgression and equity. That's a good question. That's a good question. So by the time you get to the Babylonian exile, Israel is sitting in the mess of its own making. They are indebted to Yahweh. They have racked up a huge amount of debt and they are beginning to pay on their debt through suffering and through experiences of the curses of the covenant. And then some of them go back into the land and try and rebuild their life and it's just one foreign empire after another constantly enslaved It's still under the time of covenant curse and that's the time in the moment in the story into which Jesus is born and that's how he sees where he's located in the story. He sees himself as being born into an Israel that is in debt and in need of release. Yeah. And need of release. So in that sense, it's like the Egyptian slavery and being released is like being freed out of Egypt. Yeah. But the reason they're under this new version of slavery and oppression is because of their sin. Is they're undoing? That's right. Yeah. So in other words, release from the consequences of our sins to for a Jewish person to be talking about that when Jesus was saying and doing that activates this whole storyline. So it's one important piece of the puzzle. Okay, the make sense. I just want to do two Hebrew Bible examples just to help this land. So one is a great set of poems at the end of the prophet Micah or the minor prophet. Actually I don't like that term for the I don't think they would like it either. No, it's nothing minor about them. So in Micah chapter 6 Yahweh starts surveying what he sees happening in Jerusalem before the armies of, in Micah's Day, Assyria arrives. And so what Micah says is, the armies of destruction are coming, and Yahweh is the one sending them to Jerusalem in his day, the Assyrian armies. So what shall I say about the homes of the wicked filled with treasures gained by cheating? What about the disgusting practice of measuring out grain with dishonest measures? How can I tolerate your merchants who use dishonest scales and weights? The rich among your wealthies through extortion, through violence. Your citizens are so used to lying that their tongues are not able to tell the truth. Therefore, I'm going to wound you. I will bring you to ruin for all of your sins. This is classic like prophetic accusation here. But it's important because the consequence of sins within the covenant storyline is, in army, God's gonna allow an army to come take out Jerusalem. So you're sitting in your sins if your enemies are crawling over the wall and you're being taken off into another land for exile, something. So, Micah ends with a prayer, trusting that God will restore his people. And so, the book of Micah ends in chapter 7, saying, who is a God like you who pardons the guilt of his remnant by overlooking the sins of his people? You won't stay angry with your people forever. You delight to show unfailing love. You will have compassion once again. You'll trample our sins under your feet and throw them into the ocean. Such a good image. You'll show us faithfulness and unfailing love, just like you promised Abraham and Jacob long ago. It's the last paragraph of the book. So the book ends with his accusation of sin, the covenant curses, implication, but then this little book end, or this little like a ski jump at the end of the hill, that says, but you won't hold our sins against us forever, because you're a god who fulfills his covenant promises to Abraham and Jacob, and you're compassionate, and we trust that you will forgive our sins. And in that story, forgiveness of sins means something so much more than just like, oh, now I know that I'm forgiven. It's like, it's a national storyline.

Yep, yeah. The arrival of God's kingdom, so that we can live in freedom and serve Him in peace and so on.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think of the things that Micah accused the Jerusalemites of his day. Yeah, making advantage of people. Yeah, it was all about injustice in the marketplace. And as a result of those sins, they are now in debt to God, to the God of the poor, who's invested in the poor of Israel. That's what the laws of the Torah so many are about. And then getting what you deserve beginning to pay back for your sins is the experience of exile and oppression. And so what will the forgiveness of sins mean? except that when it's not just an exchange between God and your averages, it will by definition be like a dual relationship. So you have to ask why would Jesus make that little additional comment to say, if you don't forgive other people the way they wrong you, you're not good with God. Like you can't claim to be forgiven by God and then beholding out forgiveness, not releasing other people of what they've done to you but then somehow thinking that you're really grateful that God released you for what how you wronged him it's just they're not different things and you can even see that right here not different things how do you see that here well here it's Israelites and Jerusalem wronging each other in the marketplace and that is a wrong against God because God's offended yeah And so God is the one who's sending consequences to his relates for the way that they are wronging each other. When they wrong each other, they are wronging God. And therefore, when they are made right with God, it means they are made right with each other. They're not different things for the biblical prophets and also in Jesus' mind.

Yeah, ideally. Ideally. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the forgiveness of sins becomes a shorthand for the restoration of a community that is forgiven and that people mirror and imitate that divine forgiveness by reshaping how they relate to each other.

Yeah, where he's obligated because of his holiness to punish you. Punish me. Yeah.

That's what Jesus seems to say. And no uncertain terms, right? If you don't forgive, then what you are demonstrating is that you are actually incapable of really experiencing what you say. You have experience, which is God's forgiveness. It doesn't work that way. Jesus says.

I don't know. I mean, I think of Jesus apparently thinks that it's really possible to forgive somebody who's wrong to you.

Okay. I live in such a way. I love it. I love it. Okay. All right. Well, let's take the next step then. Okay. Take the next step. The first point was just to say, within the Hebrew Bible storyline, forgiveness is not merely something between Israelites individually, or between individual Israelites and God. It has social and communal things are tied together. Yeah, and it's in a covenantal storyline attached to it. I'm taking the next step into the role that forgiveness played in Jesus' announcement of the arrival of God to kingdom. So in Luke's account, Luke chapter four, right after Jesus goes through his test in the wilderness, he goes through his hometown, Nazareth, and he goes to synagogue on Shabbat, and the Isaiah scrolls opened up, and he reads from the scroll of Isaiah. What we call chapter 61, and the part that he reads is the spirit of Yahweh is on me. because he has anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim office's release to prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind. to send the oppressed away in offices with release. And to proclaim the year of Yahweh's favor. So this is a Jubilee announcement. Jesus is announcing that the arrival of God's kingdom is another way of saying the ultimate release. The great forgiveness. The great forgiveness. And to be a prophet announcing that to Israel as we sit under foreign domination from Rome. He's announcing that the great restoration is going to happen. The thing that Micah hoped for.

Yeah, forgiving him in the ocean. That's right. To announce the forgiveness of sins was a prophetic announcement of the arrival of God's kingdom for Israel. God has forgiven us. He's in the process of forgiving us right now. So when Jesus starts going out and he sees a paralyzed man and he says, my son, your sins are forgiven. Get up and walk. The act of healing is a release from his being bound to mortality and sickness. But it's also covenantal release. because the sign of his healing is a sign that God is forgiving us and going to bring about the blessings of the covenant and no longer the curse. In other words, as an israelite being paralyzed is an icon of living in the age outside of blessing. Because when we experience the blessing, the blessings of Eden and blessings of the covenant There's not sickness. There's health. There's not subjugation to enemies. There's freedom. There's not. Oh, back to heaven. What you write in the covenant curse. Yeah, totally. So for Jesus to go around announcing forgiveness to individuals is bound up with the forgiveness of Israel's sins. Because it's the sins against God that brought the covenant, curses upon them. Jesus uses the similar language in a story in Luke 13 where he comes across a woman who's like, I have a hunchback or she can't stand up straight for years. And he calls her over to him and he says, woman, you are and uses a synonym of office, but as the same meaning, you are released from your sickness. And then a couple lines down, he's talking to somebody about what happened. And he calls this woman a daughter of Abraham who has been bound by the Satan. She's been imprisoned by the Satan. And he says what he's doing to her is releasing her from her imprisonment on the Shabbat on the seventh day. So all these the seventh day, forgiveness, the restoration of Israel, these are all interconnected in the biblical imagination. And so for Jesus announcing forgiveness and then really practicing it as a community was a sign of the arrival of God's kingdom. A community of radical forgiveness is in incarnation of God's kingdom. People living under the rule and the reign of God's blessing.

Yep. We're talking about this kind of story. Or in poverty. Or in poverty. Or, ritually impure. And so, unable to go worship in the temple, like with relapsee. Yeah.

Yep, yeah, that's right. Yeah, and so this is the reciprocal nature. Forgive us, our debts. Father, just as we forgive those indebted to us. So there's this reciprocal nature. If I believe I am among the community of the forgiven and part of realizing that is, I myself, my life has been full of shortcomings where I have morally failed to do right by other people in my life. Well, in the Christian tradition, there's language for this or sins of commission and sins of omission. Things that I have actually done to people, were things that I failed to do that I ought to have done. These are all ways that I contribute to the mess. God, through Jesus, has moved towards me in my debt and declared that I am forgiven. And if that's my identity, that's the starting place, then how I then go out and begin to relate to other people, must. Jesus means what Jesus says, it must be from a posture of forgiveness, to practice forgiveness. And if you deny other people forgiveness, The kind of forgiveness that God has shown towards me, then you show you don't actually get what's going on here. You haven't really participated in the forgiveness. I think that's what he's trying to say here. Well, at least, again, this daily prayer is meant to shape me. into the kind of person so that I'm prepared to be wronged by people. If you pray this every day, forgive us, our sins as we forgive. Those who sin against us, I'm mentally preparing myself that I'm going to be wronged by somebody today. And what's my response going to be? Well, I should know that I am somebody who lives and exists because of God's forgiveness to me. I've been wronging people too. I've wronged people too, and therefore wronged God. And that's what Jesus is after here. He wants to shape a community of people who are like this emblem of radical forgiveness to each other and that that communicates a story of the good news of God's forgiveness of us.

Yeah. Let's talk about that. Okay. Let's take our third step. We'll just wrap up the second step, which was forgiveness in the teachings in life of Jesus. This little line of Lord's prayer actually gives us a window into a huge theme in Jesus' life and teaching. Forgiveness of sins for all of Israel, and then teaching His followers to learn to practice forgiveness. and seeing all of his healings as being acts of release, demonstration of gods, releasing people from sin and sickness and death. This was all interconnected for Jesus. But a big theme of his practical teaching was teaching people how to work this out, practically. And that's what you're after now, this third step, like how do you, what does it actually mean? There's a few places where Jesus works this out. One of the most practical ones is in Matthew chapter 18. Jesus gets super practical. Jesus begins, Matthew chapter 18 verse 15, and he says, listen, if a brother or sister in the community. So notice he's talking about within the community of his followers. So let's say somebody wrongs you, does wrong. Then what you should do first is go one on one and like talk to them about it. Go to the person and talk to them. And if they listen to you, sweet, you've restored the relationship, or it's the phrase you've gained your sibling back. So you lost a sibling through the rupture of the relationship, because they did something to you, then you go do that. So first go, don't go to a prayer meeting and say, let's pray for somebody. Because I heard that they did this and, or did you know this, they did this to me. Really, which you could use your prayers about this, struggling with this prayer. You know? It's like the thing that actually is hardly anyone ever does.

Yeah. It's actually a really, it's a very vulnerable act. Yeah. To go share with somebody that they hurt you. Yeah. Because they may not even realize they did it.

And like all that. The whole thing gets massive. And devolver real quick. Yeah. So Jesus builds that into his wisdom teaching here. So he says, the first thing is don't go talk to somebody else. Go to the person. Then he says, okay, let's say that doesn't work and they don't listen. Then what you should do is take one or two more with you and then he quotes wisdom from the Torah by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact, maybe confirmed. Well, this is a good example of Jesus using the Torah's wisdom literature. because the original context of that is in like a legal dispute, but he's deriving a wisdom principle from that. And this always fascinated me because, so the point is, don't, don't go tell other people, whoever you tell is somebody that is going to get involved. and the people why you need to get someone involved is maybe you're off base well maybe they're off base like you well you need a some third party that's neutral that doesn't have a conflict of interest like get a mediator that I think that's what he's after here okay and if one is not going to do it maybe two What are two mediators? Why widen the circle of perspective?

Getting impartial. Mediators in the loft. Yep. And sword things out. If still that doesn't repair it, then Jesus says, OK, you probably need to share it with the wider circle. And Jesus famously, this is the only time Jesus brings up this idea, which is about a form of excommunication. tell it to the gathering. And if that person refuses to listen to every other follower of Jesus, they're in relationship with, then what you should treat them is that somebody who doesn't actually know or follow Jesus. This is of huge significance to Jesus. To this be a community where we are practicing radical forgiveness, that he goes to these lengths to describe the process. is really mattered to him that his followers live in this way.

You know, like, oh, yeah, yeah, trying to adapt it to like a local church. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So it worked with me here. I have this in the notes. There's some real significant implications about what forgiveness is and is not. I think that comes from this teaching right here. Well, this doesn't seem to be about forgiveness. Oh, well, it's what you do. Actually, that's a good question. Thank you. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because it has implications for what Jesus does and does not mean by forgiveness. Sorry, I need to continue. The moment Jesus finishes saying this, Peter comes up and says, OK, this famous, how often shall am I supposed to forgive another sibling here in the community if they wrong me?

Peter's trying to bring up a loophole.

Yes. Oh, it's pretty. So Peter goes like, okay, that's cool little handbook there on how to deal with our conflict because you step one be like, you owe me something. Well, but you go to the person and share with them and ideally they would be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. What can I do to make this right? Right. That's how you hope it goes. Yeah.

Yeah. More that the thing that we just went through is if another sibling in the community wrongs you, go talk to that person. Yeah. And then you'll, if they're humble and you're humble, you'll find a way to work it out to make things right. And then Peter asked, okay, but what if they say they're sorry and we make things right? And they do it again. What if they do it seven times? Yeah. And do I have to keep doing the thing that you told me to do?

And so Jesus says famously, not just seven times, but forty many times. Yeah, seventy times seven. We're seventy seven times. There's a little translation debate there. But what he's taking is the phrase of what canes descend at lemek. said, if God forgave Cain seven times over for murdering his brother, then God's obligated to forgive me. I can go around and kill people. So Jesus takes that line. Wow. And he flips it about brothers wronging brothers. You forgive them. The intensity of Lemx violent selfishness. He inverts to be a messianic. Jesus followers intensity of forgiveness. Oh wow. That's good. Yeah, that's cool. And so this is Jesus' parable about well, there's this guy. I got really nerdy. Sorry. Oh, yeah.

Oh. Yeah. He forgives the murderer. Gish. Yep. But he does. He still puts him in exile. Exactly. He still experiences consequences. Yeah. And is forgiven. Hmm. By God. Yep.

Yeah. He murders a young man in the city. And then says, I have God forgave my ancestor then. Yeah. He'll have forgive me by multiple of 11. Yeah. Okay. So Peter comes up and says, hey, what's the limit here on the amount of generosity and forgiveness I showed towards someone? And Jesus says, well, think of it this way. There was this guy who owed a zillion dollars to somebody. This is okay. So he's totally parable. Tell him parable. Yeah. And the guy that he owed eventually just said, you know what? Just I release you from your debt. Okay. Go. Be free. And then he walks out of the room and he sees somebody who owes him 20 bucks. And he takes him to court, gets him arrested, and won't let the guy out of jail until he pays him the 20 bucks. And that's the parable. And so what happens is the guy that he owed a billion dollars calls him back in is like you wicked son of a into jail with you and you won't get out to you pay me my zoning dollars and that's the parable. But it's a parable realization of what he said in the Lord's Prayer, which is, if you don't forgive, you show you have not understood what it means. Well, who Jesus is and what it means to live as the community of the forgiven? You haven't grasped your identity as the forgiven one.

That's right. That's right.

No, that's actually, this is crucially important. In a sad irony, these teachings of Jesus can actually be used and abused. and have been in communities of faith to keep people in abusive relationships, family settings, where they're told to just keep forgiving when they're in physical danger. We're in suffering emotional abuse and it's hard to comprehend how we could misunderstand Jesus on such a default. No, but it's easy to understand. No, but it's like, I think what that shows is the lack Okay. He's getting to the heart of what Jesus is.

Yeah, totally. Okay. So let's take these two teachings and take seriously the fact that they're next to each other, the process that he talked about of the three steps and then this teaching about radical forgiveness. So let's talk about what forgiveness is not if we just ponder meditate on these teachings. For Jesus forgiveness is not ignoring or forgetting that somebody wronged you. Obviously. Because you're going out of your way to show it. Yeah. You are naming it and drawing attention to it. One on one. And then with other people. And then with, as wide as circle as is necessary to communicate that this is not acceptable. So this is not water under the bridge. We're trying to move on because time heals all wounds. It doesn't. And Jesus doesn't expect us to think it does. It's forgiveness doesn't mean you endorse or come down what this person is doing. Just the opposite. that you're going to them, to like name it, right? And for me, this was a significant one. The next one is that with this widening circle of safety, to go yourself, which is very vulnerable. In the moment, you realize like, oh, this is not safe. Safe. Jesus has never be alone with that person again. bring to, and if that doesn't work, widen the circle, and don't relate to that person anymore. That's just this teaching. And apparently, you can still forgive them and act that way. That's not exclusive with forgiveness.

Totally. That's right, which means that in Jesus's mind, forgiveness and reconciliation are different. They're not the same thing.

Yeah, that's right. But think, so let's use your example there. Somebody is like talking behind your back. They keep saying they're sorry, but then they keep doing it. Yeah. So what in reality is happening is they're not listening. Yeah. They actually are they actually fit into the category of the person who refuses to stop or acknowledge what they're doing. And so, in Jesus' mind, you don't be with that personal loan and include other people in the process. So you know, you're not just being overly sensitive. But the moment that's been established within the circle that you know, you're not right.

And the moment that you and your conscience can say, I'm not crazy. I'm not being overly sensitive. Me and some other people think this person's out of line and they say they're sorry, but they keep doing it. then we need to cut off relationship. That's what Jesus says to do. Cut off relationship. Well, actually, what he says is, treat them as if they're not a follower of Jesus. Which means don't hold them to the standards of a follower of Jesus. I'd be hard pressed to think Jesus would say, and definitely like, keep hanging out with them. Like, if they're not a safe person to be around, don't be around them. Like, that's just unwise. So there is another implication here that I think requires a bit of nuance But apparently forgiveness for Jesus also does not mean.

Yes. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. At the end of the parable, Jesus after Peter's question, Jesus says that forgiveness is a posture of the heart. He says, this is what God will treat you like this angry, that collector. If you don't forgive your neighbor and he uses his phrase, xcardias from the heart. So for Jesus, forgiveness is a heart posture towards somebody that's wronged me. And that has to happen regardless of whether we are ever able to repair the relationship or reconcile.

Yeah. Well, I think we're putting good language to it. It's refusing to treat them as if they owe me. But releasing them. Practically, I think it would be not allowing the wrong that they did me to have power over me, not allowing it to define

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, totally. So I think man probably you would need some wise advisors. to discern what is an appropriate level of consequence. And what's the point at which I am trying to get even? Or, you know? Because it's, sorry.

No, at least doesn't that doesn't seem to be an implication of what how Jesus describes it. That's right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I think man, so much depends on the circumstances. There might be a case where man, if this person isn't held of account in some way, they're a danger to our community. They're going to do this to other people, right? So yeah, in terms of some situations, especially if it's criminal or something, it would be irresponsible to have no consequences for somebody acting in criminally or something. Right. So, but you could forgive that person. and still have them.

Yeah. Well, Jesus locates it first of all in the heart. Okay. So it's at least about my heart posture for them. So I think the role that they play at my, I think at the first, it's not reducing that person's humanity to the wrong that they did toward me, like learning to discover a compassion for them. I know what it's like to act out of selfish motives. And I trust by God's grace that I'm not wholly evil, even though I have hurt people selfishly. And so I'm going to begin a journey trying to reframe why that person did that and see that they're an image of God. and adjust my heart posture towards them. I think that's one certainly one aspect. Having compassion for them. Even though they hurt you. Even though they hurt me. And it may, I think, yeah, I think the spirit does and may lead people to embody that heart posture in more radical acts of actually letting people off the hook.

Yeah, because, yeah, you can.

I can take the hit. Yeah. And that's something, notice Jesus doesn't get to that level of detail here and I think it's wisdom guidance. So it's going to look a little different in every different type of situation. Because some things we can't take the hit on, you just can't. Yeah, that's right. And it's irresponsible for there to be no consequences for lots of different types of wrong. But yeah, here I'm just going to take a moment to look up when I actually talk on this passage. A more recent, powerful example to me, remember in 2015, there was that shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, when a guy barged in to like a Bible study prayer meeting at a neighborhood church and just unloaded his weapon on the people gathered there and he killed all these people. So he was obviously accused of manslaughter and murder and all these things, and he's in prison right now. But one of the family members of one of the women that died came to the sentencing and asked if she could speak publicly, her name was Nadine Collier, and she forgave him. On behalf of the church community, Google it. It will make you wait. It's so amazing to hear this woman speak. Because she said, you came into a church of followers of Jesus and you did this and I need you to know that you took precious lives away from us. People that will never be able to see again. But if God forgives you, she said, then I forgive you too. And you're like that. Only the spirit of God can lead somebody to the conclusion that they need to do something like that.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. Well, I guess we'd have to ask her. What I think when Jesus talks about forgiveness from the heart. It's about not wishing that person were dead, not wishing for there, whatever, for evil to befall them and finding a little corner of my heart where I can find compassion for them. And hope that they can see what they did and discover forgiveness. God's forgiveness, just like God forgave me. I don't, I can. And man, I think for some, in some situations, even just that is a very monumental step forward and can be liberation from the wrong that someone did. It's a release for the forgiveness. Right. As much as it is a release for the forgiveness. Yeah. But I'm with you. This is not a formula. This is wisdom guidance for very murky difficult situations. That's a great question. It's almost something you can only ask individuals who have suffered greatly from another's wrong to ask. What did it mean for you to reach a place of peace and forgiveness? What does that look like? Especially in a situation like this where it didn't mean escaping consequences.

Yeah, ideally, but obviously Jesus is like a realist enough to know that's not because the realistic in this situation of this existence is to live in right relationship.

Yeah, yeah, that doesn't prevent a disciple of Jesus from responding to the call to forgive from the heart, though that may take a number of different manifestations. Forgive us our debts, as we have been forgiven.

Yeah, thank you. Actually, you know what? I just assimilated Jesus saying to the way Paul refraises it in the letter to the Ephesians. Oh, what does he say? Oh, I paraphrase it. Forgive as you've been forgiven. Oh, as you've been forgiven. Yeah, but yeah, this is please forgive us. Yeah. Just as we forgive those indebted to us. This is something Jesus wants. It's followers to pray every day, multiple times a day. Rescue us.

Yep. That's it. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy upon us.

Yeah, you can hope for bread, even when you don't. Well, actually, you only hope for it. When you don't have it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. You can hope for forgiveness, even as you struggle to forgive. And interesting, the last one, please don't lead us into the test moments where it's going to be difficult, not just to discern between good and bad, but then actually to choose the good when I don't want to. So don't leave me into the test. But deliver us from the evil one. There's the implication there that God may well lead me into the test, even though I'm asking him not to. So it's the same hopeful. Like, I don't want to have to face a crisis of my character. But if that's what you have in store for me today, I have mercy on me.

Because yeah, so hope is actually that is a good. You're hoping for bread. You're hoping for forgiveness and you're hoping for. I make it through. deliverance and wisdom.